Bounty Hunter/Jedi Changes.

[skyhunter11]

I was on test center the past two nights for a little bit and tested some of the changes. This report is work in progress. To be fair to all the readers, this from the point of view of a player who loves/prefers playing a bounty hunter.

First was traps.

1. Lecepanine Dart - says target is poisoned, but doesn't poison.
2. Wire Mesh - claims it reduces melee defense, but doesnt appear to do so.
3. Glow Juice Trap - messages that targets ranged defense is reduced, could not detect any extra hits.
4. Sharp Bone Spur - claims it blinds the target but doesn't.
5. Noise Maker - says target is stunned, but doesn't stun
6. Stink Bomb - says target is vulnerable to all state attacks, but does not appear to increase change to land states.
7. Glow Wire Trap - messaged that target's defenses reduced but nothing could be seen as increased attacks or damage.
8. Phecnacine Dart - messages that the target is slowed but doesn't reduce the speed of the target.
9. Adhesive mesh - no effect on target. Sad BH

As of right now, unless things may change, traps are pointless to invest in. More on this later and suggestions.

Second - Jedi robe toughness. I was able to confirm that the damage inflicted on a jedi is the same whether robe is worn or not. Seems to be working on as intended.

Third - Saber block ranged is still 85 percent from what i could see from the registered amount of combat hits and blocks. Reqardless of ranged weapon type.

4th - Saber Block Melee. - I tested this tonight. Seems to work just like ranged attacks. However, the melee damage is good if the jedi is not using force armor/ force intimidate/ and toughness food. When all three defensive components are applied, jedi is invincible and force armor doesnt drain much force. I think saber block needs to be reduced a bit perhaps 65 percent for melee attacks and see if its more of threat. An unprepared jedi should die fast. Food, armor, and intimidate, should dull the blows, but shouldnt be godmode.

5th - Bounty Hunter special attacks - Tested Fast Blast mostly. Its pretty weak. I preferred using lightning single 2. I definitely believe it needs to boosted a little to be of much of a threat to anything.

6th - Robe toughness in PVE. It works! Those bonuses still apply in pve encounters.

More info to come in the coming days. Let me know if there is something else I should be testing that you know is being changed that i didn't try.

Narrk

[Dirge]

Thank you for your feedback, Narrk. I'm going to add some notes to the items you listed and give players an idea of what we're trying to do and what the expectations are.

We're going for competitiveness (not limited to BH/Jedi) here and I want to stress that jedi/bh changes will not be implemented on the live play server as they are on test today, and nothing is set in stone. We want to make jedi mortal without making them weak. We want bounty hunters to have a realistic chance of eliminating their target without making them overpowered in the GCW against non-jedi classes. We know it isn't there right now on TC but we needed to peel back some of the bonuses on both sides so we can get there. Anyone willing to invest a little bit of time on test can help just by letting us know what works and what doesn't.

First was traps.
As of right now, unless things may change, traps are pointless to invest in. More on this later and suggestions.

Things will change. Our first priority with traps is to remove the mobility debuffs but we'd like to make the other trap effective.

Second - Jedi robe toughness. I was able to confirm that the damage inflicted on a jedi is the same whether robe is worn or not. Seems to be working on as intended.

When testing this, I'd advise that players also make sure the toughness changes did not affect PvE damage calculations. The change is intended to make PvP more competitive, not to make the rest of the game more challenging.

Third - Saber block ranged is still 85 percent from what i could see from the registered amount of combat hits and blocks. Reqardless of ranged weapon type.

There are no direct plans to change the saber block rate at this time. However, we have added a "saber block bypass" modifier to weapons that is used in the hit roll for bounty hunters with a player's mission (some of you have seen this value displayed on messages in game). Currently, all weapons have that modifier set to zero with the exception of the scatter pistol which is set to 20 for testing purposes. This modifier will not be changed unless needed for balance purposes.

For anyone that would like to at least test this function these are the conditions that must be met for the modifier to be used:

• Players must meet one of the following minimum skill requirements
  • Master Bounty Hunter
  • Investigation 4 w/ an elite melee mastery
• The player must have an active bounty hunting mission for the target
• The weapon must have a modifier greater than zero. Anyone wanting to test a specific weapon/mod value will need to message me

4th - Saber Block Melee. - Work in progress.

This was introduced to prevent melee players - who should be able to damage jedi with the robe change - from having a 100% hit rate vs. jedi. We are very interested in results from both BH & GCW battles.

5th - Bounty Hunter special attacks - Work in progress.

At this point, there really should be no changes to any of these unless they came from the swgemu repo. Please let us know if there are issues that we should be made aware of.

[skyhunter11]

On saber block. First night was with a mission. I did see the modifiers displayed. Second night, was just a duel against my own jedi, no mission. But I am unsure if saberblock is reduced with a scatter pistol. I'll have to get a volunteer who is willing to log their jedi on test center who willing to stand still while I enter data into an excel spreadsheet to sun up all the blocked and unblocked.

Just a suggestion, perhaps consider removing the mission requirements for reduced saberblock on certain weapons so other profesions might have a better chance to hit a jedi. Opens up GCW to non bhs.

Examples such as commandos with their grenades, launcher pistol, rockets, flame thrower. Pistoleers - geo blaster. Any weopon that would hit a larger area rather than a single point blaster.

Tonight I will check swordsman verses jedi for melee saber block and PVE robe toughness.

Narrk

[skyhunter11]

Updated results on first post about traps. Will post suggestions about traps. Need to think about the pros and cons of ideas.

[skyhunter11]

I been thinking about trap ideas for some time. I am saddened that the snaring traps are being removed. My first suggestion is to just extend the immunity timer to 30 or even to 60 seconds . I believe its currently 20 seconds.

So below are my suggestions for each trap in the scout line with the fact that normal player mobility can not be effected.

Trap Immunity timer is set to 30 seconds just like posture and knockdown is. Only one trap can be used at a time even by multiple BHS. Also note when a BH throws a trap currently, we can not do anything for 3 seconds. So if the effect is 10 seconds, we only have 7 seconds to take advantage of the effects. I also tried to keep as close to same effect as it works on animals. Just thinking what the similar effects could be on a sentient being. So here we go:

Novice Scout Box:

Lecepanine Dart – poisons that attacks random pool with medium strength for duration of 3 to 5 minutes (duration and strength is debatable). Can be stacked with other poisons from Combat Medic or poison effects of weapons.

Wire Mesh Trap – reduces targets saber block to melee attacks, melee defense, and increases melee damage to target’s to melee weapons by 30% by 15 seconds.

Scout Trapping 1:

Glow Juice Trap - reduces targets ranged saber block, range defenses, and increases ranged damage to target by 30% by 15 seconds

Sharp Bone Spur – reduces targets lightsaber accuracy by 50 percent for 15 seconds. Stacks with blind.

Scout Trapping 2:

Noise Maker – target cannot use any force healing powers for 10 seconds. Timing needs to tested to insure effectiveness but doesn’t over power jedi.

Stink Bomb – decreases targets defenses to KD/PD/Dizzy/Stun/Blind/intimidate by 100 for 15 seconds. Ranged and Melee defense reduce by 50. (Good to use on master defenders because the stink!) Does not effect saber block.

Scout Trapping 3:

Glow Wire Trap – reduces targets saber block to both ranged and melee attacks, melee and range defense, and increase all damage by 50% for 10 seconds.

Phecnacine Dart – slows target’s lightsaber speed by 50 and removes force speed ability for 10 seconds.

Scout Trapping 4:

Adhesive Mesh - removes force run and burst run from target and cannot use any force run ability or burst run for 10 seconds. It’s not a snare. Player can still run at normal speed.


Those are my suggestions for traps. I am open to other ideas. I am sure what I have in mind will be a coding nightmare.

Narrk

[Dirge]

Mobility debuffs are not off the table but if the any trap changes go into live though, they will most likely be added to combat abilities. This could be done with existing abilities or we could create new ones if it is determined that they are needed to keep things balanced. The code for traps is already a nightmare to manage. Not only is it one of the most complex command files to begin with, it has become more complicated over the years with all of the changes we have made to it.

If we do make traps that debuff jedi skills they need to work within the base command structure, which would mean making new traps to target them and may be considered. If we try to plug something in that changes the way each trap works based on a BH holding the targets mission we're asking for disaster. We already do that to an extent and it has resulted in a handful of bugs and has been my personal source of frustration on many occasions.

Lastly, this is not all about hunters being able to stand toe-to-toe with jedi (though we are aiming for that). Aside from the Jedi/BH fights we are trying to get to a point where we would feel comfortable enabling non-jedi player bounties. The code has been in place for over a year to make that happen but we don't feel we can turn it on in an environment where a BH can snare their target and fastblast (or bodyhit w/stun baton, headshot 3 w/t21, etc.) their way to an easy payday.

We appreciate the feedback and would like to see other perspectives and any additional ideas or suggestions our players have. I'd like to see more of them fall outside of what we can do with traps though. There are a lot of things we can do and I'm happy to explore any options that can keep things competitive.

[Erigzback]

I been thinking about trap ideas for some time. I am saddened that the snaring traps are being removed. My first suggestion is to just extend the immunity timer to 30 or even to 60 seconds . I believe its currently 20 seconds.

Trap Immunity timer is set to 30 seconds just like posture and knockdown is. Only one trap can be used at a time even by multiple BHS. Also note when a BH throws a trap currently, we can not do anything for 3 seconds. So if the effect is 10 seconds, we only have 7 seconds to take advantage of the effects. I also tried to keep as close to same effect as it works on animals. Just thinking what the similar effects could be on a sentient being. So here we go:

The reason I dislike these snare traps on a short cooldown is due to the fact you also have a posture and kd effect. It also currently is a waste of force because it completely deactivates force run. I honestly would be okay with it if it had a global cooldown of say 60 seconds where if it's used no other bh can use it for 60 seconds as an oh-crap button. But I think proper builds and proper weapon swaps give you the ability to still kite a jedi fairly well, and if you're taking too much dmg you can swap to melee until certain abilities are back up. Especially as group hunters.

Novice Scout Box:

Lecepanine Dart – poisons that attacks random pool with medium strength for duration of 3 to 5 minutes (duration and strength is debatable). Can be stacked with other poisons from Combat Medic or poison effects of weapons.

I don't have a huge issue with this idea as long as the strength isn't too high and the dot doesn't last too long. As dots are guaranteed damage just have to watch for the strength of it. Would take some testing to see what numbers work best.

Wire Mesh Trap – reduces targets saber block to melee attacks, melee defense, and increases melee damage to target’s to melee weapons by 30% by 15 seconds.

I would be okay with the first 2 parts of the trap. 30% increase to all melee dmg is a bit much in my opinion especially when you can group hunt. Idk that I like the idea of perma increased dmg taken by a large amount like that.

Scout Trapping 1:

Glow Juice Trap - reduces targets ranged saber block, range defenses, and increases ranged damage to target by 30% by 15 seconds

Same reply as Wire Mesh Trap. I don't like the 30% dmg boost idea. I don't mind the other things though. I think this trap and the Wire Mesh trap have too many bonuses for 1 button.

Sharp Bone Spur – reduces targets lightsaber accuracy by 50 percent for 15 seconds. Stacks with blind.

This trap makes any melee immortal to jedi outside of lightning (currently) so I dont know that I'm a fan of the numbers used here. My tkm is already pretty unkillable with just blind, another -50 to accuracy and I'd never be touched period. Just my thoughts thoughts. I read this trap name and think applied bleed.

Scout Trapping 2:

Noise Maker – target cannot use any force healing powers for 10 seconds. Timing needs to tested to insure effectiveness but doesn’t over power jedi.

This is the only one I strongly disagree with. With the potential of a 5v1 bh to jedi I don't like the thought of 0 healing allowed unless postured time or kd timer. KD requires you to decide if you want to heal or stand for the reduced damage. You have the chance to make that decision for a right or wrong play. With a trap like this that option is taken away multiple times over. As a reminder in the next patch jedi will also be taking more dmg in general. I think Noise maker and feel it should always apply the stun state. And maybe some of the additional effects you want to put on stink bomb (aka ranged and melee defense reduction)

Stink Bomb – decreases targets defenses to KD/PD/Dizzy/Stun/Blind/intimidate by 100 for 15 seconds. Ranged and Melee defense reduce by 50. (Good to use on master defenders because the stink!) Does not effect saber block.

I think reduced defenses on a trap is a decent idea and really good vs defenders or enhancers with the xx4x tree. However I think 100 is too high for jedi toons. It's hard to get normal toons over that number without tapes much less jedi. That 1 trap would reduce jedi defenses to 0 flat out every time. But I like the idea, just think the number is too high. I also think ranged and melee defense being added on top of this trap is too much for 1 button again. I think you take the ranged and melee def. and plop that onto noise maker so you need to make a choice (or some other trap with less debuffs)
Scout Trapping 3:

Glow Wire Trap – reduces targets saber block to both ranged and melee attacks, melee and range defense, and increase all damage by 50% for 10 seconds.

I think this is an insta kill trap vs any llc bh. Too many bonuses going on for a bh with this trap out in my opinion. While I agree something needs to be looked at with saber block but I don't believe you should also give a 50% dmg buff while reducing that saber block as my jedi gets hit hard as is when a shot goes through saber block on test.

Phecnacine Dart – slows target’s lightsaber speed by 50 and removes force speed ability for 10 seconds.

Interesting idea and I like it. I think I'd rather see something along the lines of 15-20, but I like the idea.

Scout Trapping 4:

Adhesive Mesh - removes force run and burst run from target and cannot use any force run ability or burst run for 10 seconds. It’s not a snare. Player can still run at normal speed.

Not against this idea, but I don't think it should work on burst run. I do however think it should work on force run as long as you can't spam it, there has to be a cooldown on this as well maybe 30ish seconds. That forces you to look for good times to select this trap (aka posture to gain distance followed by the trap to maintain the distance for a longer period of time.. etc.)

Those are my suggestions for traps. I am open to other ideas. I am sure what I have in mind will be a coding nightmare.

Narrk

Overall I like the ideas. It does look like a coding nightmare but that's one for Dirge to pick through lol. I think some of your numbers are exaggerated a bit, but that's what these posts are for, and that's why they are open to discussion.

Since I went through and said I thought many of your ideas were too strong vs jedi I'll also follow up and post something I would like to see against jedi..

Force run 2out of combat: 2 minute buff

Force run 2 in combat: 30second buff with 2 min cd.

Force run 3 out of combat: 2 minute buff

Force run 3 in combat: doesn't exist, defaults to fr2 for the remainder of the 2minutes and then as long as combat lasts you're fr3 is forced into fr2 rules.

-Force run 3 doesn't actually work under this games engine. It's very buggy and causes range issues every time it's used. Casting aside the "get outta jail free" card it provides, it just doesn't work with this game and the games engine. Many people complain about runners.. I think these changes would help limit that.

You can still escape with 30seconds of fr2 if you time it well and use it correctly. But it's harder to do.

Thanks for the post Narrk, and look forward to more feedback on this subject.

[skyhunter11]

I like your force run rules for in combat and out of combat situations.

All the traps I listed as for being used bhs on jedi would all have 30 second timers. The issue is the 3 seconds a bh can't do anything once they begin to toss the trap. Plus traps can fail from time to time. Being able to KD and posture change a jedi is harder than normal pvp combat. They block 85 percent. Many times i use a fresh KD or PD and system says target can not be KD or PD. The Enhancers, theres alot of them, and defenders, make it nearly impossible. Why I thought increasing those opportunities (12 seconds of actually attacks, on a 15 second timer) would help control the fight and delay getting hit a few more times. Not being able to kite a jedi with snare traps, i thought doing a bunch more damage would make them heal more than hit you more for a brief period of time. Also serves as a good alpha strike on a unsuspecting jedi. Once they buff up with food, force armor, and/or use force intimidate, the damage bonuses of 30 or 50 percent are quite negated.

Currently on test center, ranged and melee weapons don't do much damage. But I only tested in a one on one set up. I like to have to see the damages of 2 or more players on one jedi to get some better numbers in those situations.

Narrk