Jedi getting heals from friendlies.

[Celt]

We disagree on some things Celt, and that's healthy and productive, but I stand by my entire statement and I meant no offence. Search your feelings you know it to be true. As far as BH and the difference between here and live, they have been nothing but buffed on this server sans a nerf to melee stackers by giving jedi more accuracy that most likely won't affect a melee/BH who is not a true stacker and most likely not dodge capped any way. The one thing that I can say is different between BHs in live and the BH community here is I don't remember them blowing up the forums trying to convince the world that they are absolutely pathetic every time they failed a mission in live. Come on Man, rein your people in a little bit with all that rot. BH vs Jedi is way better here than it was in live, they can use blasters here! The LLC in live was absolutely useless. And I was referencing the movies not a bunch of fan fiction lol if you go by that stuff Jar Jar is a sith lord. As far as being out of touch here it's possible that you have a higher opinion of my skills when I am on my BH. You might even know me much better than you think you do. At any rate I was not trying to start anything just give my 2 cents. I have no beef with you or your people and I think you are doing a fine job killing Jedi. Might even hire you guys at some point if ever I can't handle my own business. Of coarse I would have to invoke your Mercenary mantra and put you guys on the battle field against an organized force as auxiliary. At any rate, chin up buckaroo everything will be just fine. We are still friends.

1. Heated discussions, when conducted respectively are very productive. No offense taken.
2. The nerf to stacker/BHs (which isn't so much jedi accuracy, but a lack of damage/too much jedi toughness) is game-changing. Stackers were the hunters who put fear into jedi, not ranged. Saberblock has alot to do with that. Again, i challenge you to go roll a dodge-capped TK/Bh and see how much success you have.
3. The canon I cited was not from faction fiction but the pre-disney canon.
4. As for reining in my people...I rarely, if ever, tell them what to do. "Do what thou wilt" is the whole of <BH> law. Censoring their forum posts is certainly not going to happen.

[davej30]

SiFu
I welcome any discussion that involves my profession and i fully understand that you will come from your corner too,Ive certainly got no hard feelings about your posts,but i wont be reigned in though and i dont expect you to be either.
Right MY POINT is this (ill address the other stuff you came up with in your post later on) and ill type it in cynar green so it stands out.

As it currently stands,A bh cannot receive an outside heal whether factioned or not,the only way to get this would be either to pick a faction and not take the bounty (which is pointless),the other option at a guess is to bring a invest 3 medic with the same mission

Theres a loophole here on the jedi side which im quite sure your aware of,the jedi is not locked out of heals once a bh tef is inititated.Thats what i am getting at,im not asking for a nerf to jedi,what i think i am asking for is the tef to work both ways.
Thats my POINT here,the rest of what your stating i will address although its not all that relevant to outside heals

Now this;
I dont know why you have singled out one specific engagement of mine,one engagement is not relevant to what i perceive is a common denominator,call it flavour of the month if you will.
And that is the growing use of outside heals,whether i go for a full templated on my own is not the issue,i certainly dont go into those engagements with the mindset im coming away with a bright shiny victory badge pinned to my chest.
I do it for my own tactical and intelligence reasons,i have and will continue to kill jedi solo and most of those kills are not about what weapons or abilities i have its choosing where i engage them and a poi is as valid a location then any other if not more so.

I dont know why you have brought up Dot weapons,but i will say this they are not plentifully (or they wernt) and they got adjusted.
IF i have one,I may have had it for a very long time,but thats just hearsay and speculation.

2) Drop the MBH box and tell me if you notice a difference on your next hunt. you can and will immediately pick it right back up for those hidden defenses that you will sorely miss.

Those hidden defenses imo allude to something else,and if they where present in the template as you see it,they are negligible.

And whilst im on the subject of defenses i find it ironic and unsettling that the best and most convenient way to aquire mando armour is to pick up a saber.

In closing id like to remind you on this server,A jedi is supposed to be in hiding,there should be no great jedi wars without fear of being killed.
A bh when it comes for you whether alone or in a group should be taken as a threat not a minor inconvenience.

[SiFu]

We disagree on some things Celt, and that's healthy and productive, but I stand by my entire statement and I meant no offence. Search your feelings you know it to be true. As far as BH and the difference between here and live, they have been nothing but buffed on this server sans a nerf to melee stackers by giving jedi more accuracy that most likely won't affect a melee/BH who is not a true stacker and most likely not dodge capped any way. The one thing that I can say is different between BHs in live and the BH community here is I don't remember them blowing up the forums trying to convince the world that they are absolutely pathetic every time they failed a mission in live. Come on Man, rein your people in a little bit with all that rot. BH vs Jedi is way better here than it was in live, they can use blasters here! The LLC in live was absolutely useless. And I was referencing the movies not a bunch of fan fiction lol if you go by that stuff Jar Jar is a sith lord. As far as being out of touch here it's possible that you have a higher opinion of my skills when I am on my BH. You might even know me much better than you think you do. At any rate I was not trying to start anything just give my 2 cents. I have no beef with you or your people and I think you are doing a fine job killing Jedi. Might even hire you guys at some point if ever I can't handle my own business. Of coarse I would have to invoke your Mercenary mantra and put you guys on the battle field against an organized force as auxiliary. At any rate, chin up buckaroo everything will be just fine. We are still friends.

1. Heated discussions, when conducted respectively are very productive. No offense taken.
2. The nerf to stacker/BHs (which isn't so much jedi accuracy, but a lack of damage/too much jedi toughness) is game-changing. Stackers were the hunters who put fear into jedi, not ranged. Saberblock has alot to do with that. Again, i challenge you to go roll a dodge-capped TK/Bh and see how much success you have.
3. The canon I cited was not from faction fiction but the pre-disney canon.
4. As for reining in my people...I rarely, if ever, tell them what to do. "Do what thou wilt" is the whole of <BH> law. Censoring their forum posts is certainly not going to happen.

1) & 2) I loved TKM/BH in live it was a killer for sure. so I can agree with your first point. Also by putting everything in the master box which does not leave you enough skill points to master a second tier melee profession they pretty much put a stop to all that all at once and it might have been the biggest blow to Melee/BH. I think melee or ranged should be a choice because this game is all about choice so there should be a way to make melee/BH viable. They won't do it because some of the top stackers still pose a threat to jedi now. Any little boost to melee and Jedi might lose Alpha status. I am not talking about the run of the mill melee build but a true stacker geared to the max. The best BH can achieve and still have MBH is a mediocre melee build so it's unfortunate that they absolutely have to have MBH to be good.
3) I know, but you had already accused me of sarcasm so i figured; why not, besides it was a good chance to air that rediculess Jar Jar Binks/Sith Lord thing and silly things must be spread lol
4) How very Anton Lavey of you but then it went all American. hmmmm Torn on that one. I still wish they would stop some times and take their lumps and channel it into new creative ways to kill people. That thing with Icefalen and his fastblasting saber could not have been a fluke. There are more deadly anomalies to be found i'm sure that will be the bane of all Jedi for at least a day. But rest assured, they will be equally looking for ways to foil your plans.

[Xiphos]

This post is starting to go all over the place. Let's please keep it respectful (it has been for the most part) and keep in mind it's primarily about the current healing dynamic while under BH TEF.

A few notes from staff side:
We hear and appreciate your comments and opinions. We will examine changing the mechanic blocking BH heals, adding a block to jedi heals, and/or including the healers in the BH TEF. In the meantime BHs, I'd recommend bringing some factional friends to deal with healers.

Traps are here to stay, but we will examine their effects. Melee BHs may get some indirect love via various upcoming changes (of which there is not yet a definite timetable) but do not expect them to be what they were on live.

My personal view:
Awakening has the most fun and practical jedi-BH system due to some buffed aspects of MBH. No one will ever like all of the aspects of the system; that's the nature of the beast. However, all things equal, hunting a knight+ is designed to be a group activity for a BH. If the jedi has a group too, it's safe to assume the BH will need to increase the number of his/her allies.

[Celt]

4) How very Anton Lavey of you but then it went all American. hmmmm Torn on that one. I still wish they would stop some times and take their lumps and channel it into new creative ways to kill people. That thing with Icefalen and his fastblasting saber could not have been a fluke. There are more deadly anomalies to be found i'm sure that will be the bane of all Jedi for at least a day. But rest assured, they will be equally looking for ways to foil your plans.

Bounty Hunters are a different breed. Trying to tell them what to do is like trying to nail paint to a tree. As for Icefallen's fastblasting saber...I am pretty sure that wasn't working as intended.

[SiFu]

SiFu
I welcome any discussion that involves my profession and i fully understand that you will come from your corner too,Ive certainly got no hard feelings about your posts,but i wont be reigned in though and i dont expect you to be either.
Right MY POINT is this (ill address the other stuff you came up with in your post later on) and ill type it in cynar green so it stands out.

As it currently stands,A bh cannot receive an outside heal whether factioned or not,the only way to get this would be either to pick a faction and not take the bounty (which is pointless),the other option at a guess is to bring a invest 3 medic with the same mission

Theres a loophole here on the jedi side which im quite sure your aware of,the jedi is not locked out of heals once a bh tef is inititated.Thats what i am getting at,im not asking for a nerf to jedi,what i think i am asking for is the tef to work both ways.
Thats my POINT here,the rest of what your stating i will address although its not all that relevant to outside heals

Now this;
I dont know why you have singled out one specific engagement of mine,one engagement is not relevant to what i perceive is a common denominator,call it flavour of the month if you will.
And that is the growing use of outside heals,whether i go for a full templated on my own is not the issue,i certainly dont go into those engagements with the mindset im coming away with a bright shiny victory badge pinned to my chest.
I do it for my own tactical and intelligence reasons,i have and will continue to kill jedi solo and most of those kills are not about what weapons or abilities i have its choosing where i engage them and a poi is as valid a location then any other if not more so.

I dont know why you have brought up Dot weapons,but i will say this they are not plentifully (or they wernt) and they got adjusted.
IF i have one,I may have had it for a very long time,but thats just hearsay and speculation.

2) Drop the MBH box and tell me if you notice a difference on your next hunt. you can and will immediately pick it right back up for those hidden defenses that you will sorely miss.

Those hidden defenses imo allude to something else,and if they where present in the template as you see it,they are negligible.

And whilst im on the subject of defenses i find it ironic and unsettling that the best and most convenient way to aquire mando armour is to pick up a saber.

In closing id like to remind you on this server,A jedi is supposed to be in hiding,there should be no great jedi wars without fear of being killed.
A bh when it comes for you whether alone or in a group should be taken as a threat not a minor inconvenience.

Easiest to answer is why I am singling out one hunt. Truth is I'm not. But Revith and Amina are in my guild so you have been on my radar for a little while now. Amina is my wife so I watched her fight with you sitting next to her. It is the only time I have seen you in action so for obvious reasons It's what I talked about.

As far as the BH not being able to get heals I disagree with that and I think you should be able to get heals as well. I don't think you realy want to be able to attack the healer because a lot of healers would eat a BH for breakfast and if you attack them you would risk bringing that on your self. You have built in LS resistance but how about power hammer, vibro knuckler, stun batton, poision, desease resistance? and how quick do you think you could equip composite? Not quick enough i think if a melee/doc of melee CM started fighting back.

Lastly you want the same tef but I don't even know how that would be possible. The entire process from the mission terminal to mission completion/failure is asymmetrical for the BH and Jedi. The tef is an asymmetrical part of the asymmetrical process. You get the initiative and can start the fight at a time and place of your choosing when you are ready, the Jedi gets outside help in the way of heals if they happen to have it on hand at the time and place that you choose to start the fight. I would think that the smart thing to do would be to track and wait until the time is right. To stalk the jedi until they were alone, weakened, or unbuffed and then pounce and most definitely with out a healer. Correct me if I am wrong but "Stalker" is a BH profession title no? Basically you are charging in head long while they have a Doc. That's on you man. Strategy and planing beat Zeal every time. Use your head and be smart about the way you hunt them. If you don't use your advantages and they use theirs and you lose just chalk it up to a bone headed mistake and do better next time. That's absolutely what i do when i do such things. In asymmetrical warfare you use your advantages to eliminate theirs man. "Never fight a battle that you don't already know you have won" ~Sun Tsu~ I swear if you listen to me here and start killing Jedi like crazy you owe me a Vaserian Brandy and a free contract killing at the very least.

[davej30]

Sifu.
My point is not about that particular fight, please dont make it so.
It was a great fight,good on both sides,there are no sour grapes about it.
I went into that fight expecting to lose,as for the stalking comments ask around the community about those jedi i have stalked and shot unbuffed in the back after stalking them for 30-60mins
My comments are about all the bounties i have undertaken in the last week.The Amina mission is not the main focus of my outside heal comment sorry to say.
If i was to talk about specific encounters ill touch over briefly on some of them which i really didnt want to do,because that would seem like sour grapes and i have a personal issue with the players,its not,its the mechanic.

In once instance i was unable to be healed as an imperial by imperials vs a rebel jedi as i took the mission so i could use traps to keep the jedi away from the imperials in a turret take down job.

A second instance me and a fellow BH where unable to out dps a jedis heals + outside heals from another jedi + force channeling from them too.
Now the option on that second instance was to go rebel and take out the jedi healers,what all six of them??? all of them jedi as well??

Now again just so we are clear,i have nothing personally about that jedi receiving all those heals and force (he looked like a christmas tree at one point).We had a good laugh about it on TS afterwards,they played the cards they where dealt and on some level they knew it was wrong but it is what it is.

Its the mechanic that gives the loophole,thats what i have issue with and my long term view is the escalation it will cause.
You dont need a degree or a masters to see where that escalation will go in the not to distant future either.

[Celt]

my long term view is the escalation it will cause. You dont need a degree or a masters to see where that escalation will go in the not to distant future either.

This.

It happens everytime, on both sides. Any new advantage spreads like wildfire. I don't knock Jedi for doing it. On the flip side you can't use a heal posse but complain when someone bomb droids you in your house. Who am I to dictate morals though lol.

[daetalus]

my long term view is the escalation it will cause. You dont need a degree or a masters to see where that escalation will go in the not to distant future either.

This.

It happens everytime, on both sides. Any new advantage spreads like wildfire. I don't knock Jedi for doing it. On the flip side you can't use a heal posse but complain when someone bomb droids you in your house. Who am I to dictate morals though lol.

Bomb droiding someone in a private house is a known and established exploit. No morals are needed. Dont do it or punishment can be dealt out. WHile the heal posse has already been established as "ok, working as intended with this current version of jedi" per xelphos.

[Celt]

Ok, bad analogy. How about don't use a heal posse then complain when we bring 48 people to kill you and you dont happen to have your healer anymore?

[daetalus]

Ok, bad analogy. How about don't use a heal posse then complain when we bring 48 people to kill you and you dont happen to have your healer anymore?

If you need 48 people to kill 1 person, i already think less of you than i did before.

[SiFu]

Outside healing for Jedi, traps and LLC Fast blast, an observation. This is an observation of a finished temp Jedi who is in the knight trails with 3 full rows of defender and MLS and 4004 healer vs 2 MBH with traps and good LLC's.

I witnessed 2 BH's chain trapping a finished template Jedi yesterday. The jedi had no chance. The 2 LLC's shredded the Jedi who never had an opportunity to move, fight, heal, or run. Game Breaking. I also witnessed a 1v1 where the jedi had no heals and traps were used. It was a good fight, a fair fight and it could have quickly gone either way. Heals on the jedi in the first fight might have saved the day but even still I think they would have only pro longed the inevitable as the 2 BH's timed the traps well and as soon as 1 trap broke another one landed the entire time. They could have fast blasted from a kneeling position with out any fear of taking damage as the Jedi was effectively 100% locked out of the very short fight. Traps on the single BH fight seemed to add balance in the 1v1. Outside healing for the Jedi in the 1v1 would have slanted it for the Jedi where as outside heals on the 2v1 would not have been enough to save the Jedi.

My observation. Traps are a great equalizer for a BH vs a finished temp jedi without outside heals in a 1v1 fight and they do bring balance to that. Traps were nerfed after their introduction so that they do not have 100% up time on a Jedi giving the Jedi a chance to fight, heal, or run. That is being circumvented and 100% trap up time is being maintained when more than 1 BH is fighting a jedi. Outside heals and an over abundance of them (all hands on deck) should be applied to every jedi vs 2+ BH fight every time. This might be the only recourse available when traps are being used to maintain 100% up time on a Jedi by more than 1 BH on a single Jedi. However, I am not a fan of outside healing in 1v1 conflicts as I feel the Jedi has ample opportunity between traps to fight back.

I recommend that the trap up time and down time be changed so that it is based on the target only being effected by 1 trap up time and down time timer. So that as many as 5 BH's can throw all the traps they want but the jedi is only effected by the intended up and down time desired by the Devs. Chain trapping to maintain 100% up time should be rendered imposable. I would also like to look at some sort of mitigation for the jedi vs LLC as a good LLC can 3-4 shot a jedi during the first trap. That does not seem too unreasonable until you consider that as many as 5 BH's can fire that shot once per second turning it into a guaranteed 1 shot kill while the Jedi is completely immobile and unable to fight, heal, or run. In turn, I think outside heals can be used in excess to almost assure the finished temp jedi a victory so something has to be done to make sure that is not abused like traps are as well.

What I would like to see is a good even fight between a finished template Jedi and 3 MBH's is there any way to make that happen?

[Celt]

Ok, bad analogy. How about don't use a heal posse then complain when we bring 48 people to kill you and you dont happen to have your healer anymore?

If you need 48 people to kill 1 person, i already think less of you than i did before.

If you don't recognize the hyperbole in that post I am not sure what to tell you.

[Celt]

What I would like to see is a good even fight between a finished template Jedi and 3 MBH's is there any way to make that happen?

It won't happen. Players won't settle for a coin flip. Jedi will vacate a fight and reset combat if the odds arent in their favor, and most Hunters wont attack unless the odds are stacked in their favor. Sure there are guys (like Terrance) who will still attack when the odds are against them, but the majority play to win.

[Drakathos]

Outside healing for Jedi, traps and LLC Fast blast, an observation. This is an observation of a finished temp Jedi who is in the knight trails with 3 full rows of defender and MLS and 4004 healer vs 2 MBH with traps and good LLC's.

I witnessed 2 BH's chain trapping a finished template Jedi yesterday. The jedi had no chance. The 2 LLC's shredded the Jedi who never had an opportunity to move, fight, heal, or run. Game Breaking. I also witnessed a 1v1 where the jedi had no heals and traps were used. It was a good fight, a fair fight and it could have quickly gone either way. Heals on the jedi in the first fight might have saved the day but even still I think they would have only pro longed the inevitable as the 2 BH's timed the traps well and as soon as 1 trap broke another one landed the entire time. They could have fast blasted from a kneeling position with out any fear of taking damage as the Jedi was effectively 100% locked out of the very short fight. Traps on the single BH fight seemed to add balance in the 1v1. Outside healing for the Jedi in the 1v1 would have slanted it for the Jedi where as outside heals on the 2v1 would not have been enough to save the Jedi.

My observation. Traps are a great equalizer for a BH vs a finished temp jedi without outside heals in a 1v1 fight and they do bring balance to that. Traps were nerfed after their introduction so that they do not have 100% up time on a Jedi giving the Jedi a chance to fight, heal, or run. That is being circumvented and 100% trap up time is being maintained when more than 1 BH is fighting a jedi. Outside heals and an over abundance of them (all hands on deck) should be applied to every jedi vs 2+ BH fight every time. This might be the only recourse available when traps are being used to maintain 100% up time on a Jedi by more than 1 BH on a single Jedi. However, I am not a fan of outside healing in 1v1 conflicts as I feel the Jedi has ample opportunity between traps to fight back.

I recommend that the trap up time and down time be changed so that it is based on the target only being effected by 1 trap up time and down time timer. So that as many as 5 BH's can throw all the traps they want but the jedi is only effected by the intended up and down time desired by the Devs. Chain trapping to maintain 100% up time should be rendered imposable. I would also like to look at some sort of mitigation for the jedi vs LLC as a good LLC can 3-4 shot a jedi during the first trap. That does not seem too unreasonable until you consider that as many as 5 BH's can fire that shot once per second turning it into a guaranteed 1 shot kill while the Jedi is completely immobile and unable to fight, heal, or run. In turn, I think outside heals can be used in excess to almost assure the finished temp jedi a victory so something has to be done to make sure that is not abused like traps are as well.

What I would like to see is a good even fight between a finished template Jedi and 3 MBH's is there any way to make that happen?

To my understanding Jedi has an invulnerability to a trap for a brief time after the trap expires no matter who is throwing the second trap.

[SiFu]

What I would like to see is a good even fight between a finished template Jedi and 3 MBH's is there any way to make that happen?

It won't happen. Players won't settle for a coin flip. Jedi will vacate a fight and reset combat if the odds arent in their favor, and most Hunters wont attack unless the odds are stacked in their favor. Sure there are guys (like Terrance) who will still attack when the odds are against them, but the majority play to win.

But what good is the win if it was guaranteed from the start. The challenge that the Dev's are up against and it's not an easy one to fix either is that a grinding Jedi that is still mostly TK wants to be able to fight back when they are faced with a solid group of BH's and on the other hand the solo BH wants to be able to make a dent in a pack of Jedi knights. It's incredibly difficult I would imagine to get the mechanics to allow both of those things. I believe that a good middle ground is a finished temp Jedi and 3 BH's should be a good fight with the skill of the Jedi or the BH's making it go one way or the other.

[davej30]

To my understanding Jedi has an invulnerability to a trap for a brief time after the trap expires no matter who is throwing the second trap.

You are absolutely correct there,no such thing as chain trapping.It may appear that way due to client/server,but there is a timer no matter how many we throw at the meatbag.
Cannot tell you hoow many times i get "your target is invulnerable to trap" flash across my screen.

[Celt]

But what good is the win if it was guaranteed from the start.

I think you mistake us for gladiators and not businessmen/women. Glory is great, but with the current meta glory is a dead concept. If you win 1 v 1 you only did so because the Jedi was unbuffed/underpowered/unawares. Where is the Glory in that?

My dream is a return to TKM as the alpha Jedi killer and a 1 v 1 engagement where no one gets outside help and the odds are a coin flip.

[davej30]

But what good is the win if it was guaranteed from the start. The challenge that the Dev's are up against and it's not an easy one to fix either is that a grinding Jedi that is still mostly TK wants to be able to fight back when they are faced with a solid group of BH's and on the other hand the solo BH wants to be able to make a dent in a pack of Jedi knights. It's incredibly difficult I would imagine to get the mechanics to allow both of those things. I believe that a good middle ground is a finished temp Jedi and 3 BH's should be a good fight with the skill of the Jedi or the BH's making it go one way or the other.

Grinding jedi no offense have to deal with that,its part of the ascension process,and as i was talking about escalation you will see in time to come as a guess the paddys will get gangbanged.
Doesnt seem right,doesnt seem fair,but those above often cause misery for the new generation.
However THE balance is pretty good,i would go out on a limb and say its almost there,a little buff and a tweak on both sides and we are done.
Hopefully we can see some CH with teeth and smugglers who smuggle eh?

[bobaphat]

To my understanding Jedi has an invulnerability to a trap for a brief time after the trap expires no matter who is throwing the second trap.

You are absolutely correct there,no such thing as chain trapping.It may appear that way due to client/server,but there is a timer no matter how many we throw at the meatbag.
Cannot tell you hoow many times i get "your target is invulnerable to trap" flash across my screen.

While true, you can always spam it as a free action (no SAC) and traps are not affected by any combat states except posture change. Change the latter and traps might be a bit closer to being balanced.
Though I still believe 100% CC does not belong in PRE-CU SWG...