Alpha class Problems

[davej30]

Going to start a thread here where you can discuss jedi related issues in how jedi fare against bounty hunters,the jedi mindset,the concept that has been set up since live and for those of you that never had a jedi on live what to expect as one.

[StepoKedur]

Thanks for bringing this out of general chat for a civilised discussion Terry

For those that missed it when the topic was briefly broached in general chat earlier (and it was contained as it's such a large topic) it's kind of the pros and cons currently for bounty hunters v jedi (or jedi v bounty hunters I suppose!)

[StepoKedur]

You start then Terry et al, we will respond

[Celt]

Aight, Ill bite.

Jedi toughness needs to be lowered, droids need to be fixed, and pvp damage needs to boot you from a structure instead of waiting for you to attack back. Oh yea, and force run should break on any damage.

Flame on!

[Koven]

Oh yea, and force run should break on any damage.

Can't agree with you on this point. Escape is a perfectly valid tactic and the jedi that have invested enough points to gain FR3 should never be stripped of the option to use it when they see the need. And what about those that stand their ground and have force run in their build primarily to prevent kiting? The fight suddenly becomes very one-sided when the jedi has no ability to close on an attacker or create separation when needing to regroup/regen.

[davej30]

Well i was being half serious but lets start by being tongue in cheek then

I just finished grinding my Jedi and got on the terminals,despite all advice given to me i made MY template on what i think Jedi should be.
Two hunters turned up threw a trap at me and smoked me with there overpowered guns using Fastblast. I think Fastblast and traps should be removed from the game as it prevents me from playing my Jedi and i should be able to defeat any BH that gets in my way

[prelate]

oke easy to 'flame' LOL no other word for the nonsence u write here.
Just to provoke replies..well here u have mine.

Try again and try be a little bit reasonable...i know that will be hard but just try.
Keep in mind the game SWG - as it was created - and u apparently want to play, has been setup.

So discard all 'balancing' acts, alpha class terms, that's all blah blah blah for the little childeren who need there mid day nap and keep dreaming.

The whole concept of jedi in SWG was and should be based on :
- jedi being high end profession, grind required needs be rewarded.
- because of 'knight' status and perma overt....can only be attacked by oppostite faction. As Jedi can't easy switch faction....so BH should be limited in faction switching. Shouldn't be normal u see a BH within a 3h session go from reb to neutral to imp.
- thougness needs be reduced...oke then LS resist should be reduced in the same amount, and removed from PSG. Go get a Mandolarian Armour with SOME resist on. Was reason people did the DWG grind. BH needs spend the grind in if they want to be so uber as all claim they are already.
- grouping ; with jedi or BH : if one attacks a groupmember all should be TEF but also the attackes get tef ALL in group. (can limit it here to a range from mark) So the neutral tag alongs get the TEF from the group. No hiding there any more. (same as docs..if they heal they get TEF)


I think what's really the main problem is that the BH conmmunity has lost the goal of the game and untill now, for some reason, these childeren are fed with positive feedback and actions.
They all want or claim there goal is good fights. Well give them GOOD fights but not at it stands today where

- Make it a faction based hunt but reduce faction jumping.
- all group that goes gets TEF so all can be attacked (makes no point that an SL can really a group of BH but can't be attacked)
- give BH some extra incentive and power so there can be a real nice fight.
- vis is crazy low atm...make it 65-100m again ?
- jedi can't be termed again in 12 ...24h (?) after being killed by BH. (gives grinders a chance on some quite time)
- BH taking up a mission gets perma overt during his hunt if he takes on a knight. (makes playing level same for BH as for Jedi)


If all grouped can get involved, to add to group u need drop agro, u can get real nice fights and PVP going but u also give jedi a chance to group up like BH do and make a harder target to kill.
(will not be easy as many will start using chars as groupleader of planet or out of range so they can add chars as wanted/needed)

So instead of complaining and crying BH's , start thinking out of the box, drop all your stupid ego , and try make it a fun fight. And stop using terms like if u don't like PVP don't be jedi......i can play jedi and still don't like PVP. There are some real nice PvE builds. If i get in trouble then from BH and die..that's my choise.

Just couldn't resist writting all this down so now u SHOOT

Prelate

PS i know lot of this can and needs be modified + dev's need be able to implement it. So bottom line..stop crying around and PLAY. Dev's do a wonderful job on keeping this game going. Respect the work they put in, have fun playing the game they offer us.

[Woolystyle]

/hero Prelate

[obimaul]

2 good BH can kill just about any jedi on the server. If anything jedi should be like pre pub8 at least. The group tef would be a fun element to have. then the doc toons and SL toons can be killed. Vis is 32m right now which is lame. Jedi damage is really pathetic also. Normal toon builds are better at pvp and pve than jedi are. My sense is that jedi just is not a fun class to play because its not very alpha since pub 8. No way a normal toon should be able to handle a jedi. BH can keep traps and FB but they need a way to better there defenses. Possibly make BH grind longer but have added benefits. I enjoy playing BH and I would enjoy jedi more if he were stronger than my stacker toons.

[davej30]

thanks for answering prelate,about time someone said something instead of cry in general.

so in live jedi got hammered my tkm builds,not so the case atm,now its ranged,do you think fastblast should take another adjustment to lower it as it did in the last patch?

grouptef, i have an issue with as if one or two bh roll up there would be 10 jedi waiting for them,one of the reason its was removed in live.

PSGs I think you might be on the right track there and it could be lowered.

Dont have to much time this evening to go indepth but i started this thread because i was asked to and also i want the jedi on this server to explain there current mindset and why they think things are not in there favour,that bh is OP etc.
If you dont address your grievences no one is going to know about them no matter how unreasonable your request maybe.

[StepoKedur]

As Terry is doing, I'll be popping a reply here tomorrow. Past 11pm in Blighty for us Brits so any comments Terry and I add (as well as a few other Brits here of course) will not be as good as they could be.

I have an idea of what I would like to say though but will wait

[Drakathos]

Squad leader should tef for the jedi if SL is giving buffs to a BH also Docs and other healers should tef for the BH if they heal the jedi. Robe toughness should be removed and FB made pistols only (ONLY IF TOUGHNESS IS REMOVED).

BH should be attackable to anyone in the jedi's group and the jedi and his group should be attackable to anyone in the BHrs group.

[Brianklein33]

Few thoughts on of the above.
- I do not see group tef as a long-term fix. This will be nice for some current scenarios but just create it's own issues.
- Pub8 did shake some stuff up which was cool, we will adapt and learn (BHs are adapting as we speak )

There is such a variety of jedi temps, and we were spoiled in being able to do it all. My current situation with Packers for example: I use to be able to sit in Fort Tusken or Nightsister Strongold and farm all day long and be able to hold my own against whatever BH(s) came my way. Pretty top in PvE and PvP. Now, 24 points later I am forced to choose a specialty, I do not get to be good at everything as a Jedi. So I am in the middle of deciding what I want to be good at (PvP, PvE, Support, GCW, BHs etc.) I originally went powers after testing on TC a ton. I completely overlooked that PSGs were slicable which are now causing me some issues on live, whoopsie. Yeah there is a little frustration in the moment, but you know what? I am (a) not a solo build (b) a build that really shines with higher FRS rank which is not here yet. So I am obviously not going stand in Theed taunting every BH to come take me on. You cannot expect to be a Mhealer or Mpowers and expect to take on 3 BHs when they are GCW or support builds.

I love the fact that Jedi's are in hiding, it fits in the timeline and its a challenge. Are there some changes I would like to see sure, but no drastic overhaul is the answer.

Changes I would like to see:
- BHs - I would love to see more variety in templates. I want to see red dots coming after me and not already know that they are holding an 1200 or 1300 dmg LLC. There are a select few out there but most are holding an exceptional weapon.
- Powers - FC for abilities adjusted. I can deal with the squishiness and the damage etc. I just blow through force at an insane rate and that is where I am struggling.
- Pearl tuning - High chance for a -9 on flawless. I believe someone suggested range it from -6 to -9 would be awesome. Heck even make flawless pearls rarer with a chance like this for balance.
-MLS feels needed- The saber block might be decent when looking at MLS vs xxx4 saber but that ability to apply states with Dervish from MLS is just so dang powerful and you feel it when you do not have MLS.
- High vis range. Grinding jedi to too easy

.02

[Drakathos]

As it stands right now a group of two BH'rs with good LLC's can kill any jedi no matter what the template is.. ok well maybe MLS/MDEF can stand there for a while but with the right traps even that is just cannon fodder, so basically only I win button is FR3 since Jedi wins if he escapes the clutches of BH gank.

[Celt]

I see my bait worked lol. I would respond to prelates post but I think it was much of the same. Hitting the hot buttons trying to get a rise. So here is my no shit list:

1) I would trade my account and reroll for a chance to hunt as melee. I dont see that as a workable option due to the high jedi toughness applying low low low dps to melee attackers. With this being a hard mode server though I think the toughness is required or the entire server is skewed (literally). I dont know this for a fact, just going on some reasoning here.

2) BH absolutely needs more template variety. Though the class has been this way for 2 years. <BH> dials in the FOTM and boom we see 47 hunters just like us. As terry about his groupies and dopplegangers. Sadly this is gonna require either a Jedi nerf or a BH boost. The other templates need to become viable and that starts with defenses and dps. Neither of which jedi will like.

3) Group TEF is a monster you want nothing to do with. If everyone in your group TEFs then so does everyone in my group. If you dont like dying 2 v 1 now, do you wanna die 8 v 1? We wont know when you are mobbed up so we will have to come deep for every hunt. Trust me, you wont like it. Jedi didnt like it on live, here will be no different.

[Madroxtheninja]

No I want the group TEF ... I got stacks n stacks of area poo to fling, and the first one I'm aiming for is your healer... you want it... I want it... let's make this shit happen

[Celt]

As an aside, alot of the belly-aching on the Jedi side comes from the fact we always come 2-3 or 4 deep. There is a bit of a misunderstanding here. We dont come in groups so we can win, we come in groups to stop the kiting. When traps got nerfed, and dots/fire and then particle beams got nerfed we werent left with many options to successfully fight 1 v 1 (which was intended- 2 or 3 v 1 being the intent of the BH/jedi tuning). This being said we had to find a way around it.

I know you guys think a combat reset is something you are owed, but we have to counter it. Very, very, very few of you will stand 1 v 1 with a BH given the opportunity. Time and time again blue heals, or force-feeders come running. Even fewer of you will continue to fight when the tide turns and your win isnt guaranteed anymore. Almost everyone runs. We are simply countering that. You would too if you hunted.

[evilryu]

Yawn. Not really fun playing BH anymore - way too easy.

I think I had the most fun when I was still learning the ropes but once you have a decent LLC (no need for SB tissues and DOTs) and a truckload of 60%+ psg plus steak/wafers and traps, you can solo most hybrid non-def or powers heavy jedi. With another hunter, its just a matter of time and persistence. There is one particular build that's decent vs 2 hunters but with 3 or more, the Jedi might as well pull down his/her robes and bend over. A number of hunters even have pocket SLs just to dual box and hunt with! I'm smh and awed at the same time.

Don't get me wrong, I've crafted, surveyed+harvested, PVP'ed, PVE'ed - probably almost everything now - but I really enjoyed the BH aspect the most in this game but in its current guise, it's shooting ducks in a barrel, the challenge isn't there - just buff up and collect your split of the 358k/360k.

There are at least 3-4 hunters surfing terms at any one time and not enough jedi - dedication on the hunters part but also I feel the Jedi needs to be thrown a bone to get them playing again so its long term fun for everyone involved.

[StepoKedur]

There is a bit of a misunderstanding here. We dont come in groups so we can win, we come in groups to stop the kiting. When traps got nerfed, and dots/fire and then particle beams got nerfed we werent left with many options to successfully fight 1 v 1 (which was intended- 2 or 3 v 1 being the intent of the BH/jedi tuning). This being said we had to find a way around it.

I know you guys think a combat reset is something you are owed, but we have to counter it. Very, very, very few of you will stand 1 v 1 with a BH given the opportunity. Time and time again blue heals, or force-feeders come running. Even fewer of you will continue to fight when the tide turns and your win isnt guaranteed anymore. Almost everyone runs. We are simply countering that. You would too if you hunted.

I wasn't aware of a trap nerf mate. However as I don't play a PvP BH I may not have been made aware. Could you explain what the nerf was please?

Now the one on one. I never run from a fight. If I move it is becaue the environment is not good for anyone (NS in the area or rancors and such). I will move to a better area and fight. I cannot speak for others though.

From an earlier post someone did (sorry i cannot recall as I type this) it was mentioned that 'if jedi worked together they would always beat bounty hunters. Not really practical.

When jedi are playing, they may be solo or with a few doing some mob killing with a smallish group. Not going out with a bunch of jedi to help with force regen and such.

However when bounty hunters are playing they have one aim if it's PvP and that is to kill a jedi.

Therefore they go out in numbers (it was mentioned that this is to stop runners, which indicates that the trap distance needs a tweak, something I have thought of for a while, as traps are only there to counter force run and to control the movement of the mark).

I shall go into more detail in a post soon, but to not have ANY attacks or specials, including healing or channel for, what is it, 7 seconds, 10 secs immunity or vice versa? - well with FB on any ranged weapon it seems (please correct me if I am wrong) the DPS is simply upped a hell of a lot for each BH there. What damage does FB LLC for example do per second? Multiply that by a number of bounty hunters and even allowing for the misses and blocks it's a huge amount on a sitting duck.

Traps can mitigate ranged defences and melee defences (at least they used to, is it still right?) and if a BH can trow an intimidate then secondary defences are gone too on the jedi. The int cannot be removed in those 7 (or is it 10?) seconds. Food can be popped but that is it.

You simply do not get a few jedi going out together doing stuff as the aim of thier play is not necessarilly PvP. Bounty hunters do go out in numbers because that is the raison d'etre of a bounty hunter, to kill a mark.

You wouldn't often see a BH going out to kill a krayt, or nightsisters or take a trip to the geo caves or farm Janta.

That is because the bounty hunter is specialised in the extreme to hunt jedi.

I would also like to add that I have seen many stackers go toe to toe with jedi, knights and mDefs. It is very hard to get a state on a stacker. There is actually a vid of Dunka taking on two BHs (I think they were both BHs) and one was a TK. Filmed in an outpost starport ticket booth, it's a decent fight that takes a few mins (Dunka dies though) and no traps are used - well credit to Dunka he isn't the kind to really run.

...and by the way running is just another defence. mDef have AI, enhancers have FR3 and powers have #cough# intimidate

Intimidate of course can only be applied once the fight has started and if you avoid the trap. AI and FR3 can be activated before the BHs first attack.

[Celt]

just buff up and collect your split of the 358k/360k.

This is where the disconnect is. "Jedi can easily be killed with 2 or 3 people. BH is too OP, throw Jedi a bone".

Nah, I am not buying it. There are maybe 2 hunters on this server who can maintain a winning record hunting solo and that is because they have SB or 2nd SB weapons. Sure, If you catch Jedi afk, or unbuffed or something you can win solo, but let's not bullshit each other. 1 v 1 Jedi is the alpha on this server. The problem is we, as a class, recognize that and hunt in groups to counter that. We are organized enough that groups are the norm and not the exception. This does not mean BH is OP and too easy. I hunt on three different servers and this is the most difficult server to hunt as a solo BH, by far.

As for the assertion there are no jedi playing, I believe you are simply incorrect. I see a constant 4-8 Jedi online during US peak hours, yet there may be 1 or 2 on the terms, if that. This isn't because BH is op, this is because visibility is broke.